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+--- Thread: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement (/thread-vitara-1991-brake-booster-replacement)
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement - fixkick - 07-19-2020
seen some cars with with vacuum hoses routed wrong, not per hood diagram sticker shows. and not having hoses on wrong VSV nipples.!
VSV valves connected wrong or valves cracked.
the only vacuum hose that has a device that leaks is the PCV , and the valve there has 1.6L sized orifice controlling that. (it sucks combustion fumes not air)
booster no leaks air ever. (brake)
VSV EGR is closed, it idle.
vsv evap valve is closed until moving. closed at idle.
VSV Dash pot, diaphragm do not leak in fact non do on car. this valve is closed after 15seconds engine just started. can be seen to do so with eyes on it.
FPR does not leak air.
EGR diaghram does not leak air.
3speed tranny modulator must not leak air if car is 3speed, 5speed stick has none.
map sensor must not leak air, end to end, MAP nipple not broken off.
this is my vacuum leak finders post.
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement - jwunsch - 07-21-2020
Oh thanks so so much information I have had to read this a few times with the Jargon page as a support.
One thing I did not find is the PCV in your last post, what does that stand for? Positive crankcase ventilation valve. (seen on right side of valve cover)
Right means driver seated RIGHT, an industry standard.
From the image link (8valve engine parts) on the last post of yours I can point out what I mine is missing/broken. (those are VSV vacuum solenoid valves)
VSV has filter knob but is just filter for air, sucking in dirt is bad, so has a filter.
VSV has nipples, not to be missing or cracked. One can call the filter a knob "C" here. but is a filter.
You see those 2 knobs with hoses and electric connections there near the timing belt cover.
Mine has broken knob (which surely leaks) for the red one. Could that be a reason someone has tampered with the ISC settings etc?
anyone can put photos on HERE>?(just an example of mine)
In the USA the engine has (smog laws) 3 VSV, 1 is EGR, 1 is EVAP and one is Dashpot (coldstart fast idle) all 3 must not leak air, parked and idling,.
all 3 are OFF parked. idling and do not flow air so idle speed is not wrong parked.
Anyhow It will be 1,5 weeks before I will start going trough the vacuum hoses and hope that it will fix the idle from 1200 -> 800 as it was upto this spring. I hope the hoses etc is enough to get the idle back.
keep in mind a bad power steering overload switch at the PS pump will cause 1000 RPM fast idle mode in the ECU, as will AC lamp glowing in dash blue LED. (near blower lever)
I am bit concerned about opening the TB and setting everything to factory default until i understand what that broken knob (use photos please) is supposed to do. IF ia have broken and/or missing devices and the TB / EFI is juryrigged it might be that I wont get the car running anymore
all things here can be fixed, all.
Someone definitely has played around with. After reading your posts I can say this much:
- DP is tampered and cold idle is around 3200 RPM, DP definitely works otherwise ok.
- NO free play at throttle cable at all.
- above mentioned knob broken off.
- as you said ISC is wrongly set as it fights my foot.
And even with all that hacking fuel consumption and emissions are pretty good for 30y old car with 155 000 miles on the meter.
Anyhow after your comments about this it will be a few weeks before I might ask more. I will return home 9 days from now.. then I will start replacing hoses, fixing some paint scratches I caused etc.
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement - fixkick - 07-21-2020
https://fixkick.com/sensors/vsv.html
when say the EGR vsv
when driving the VSV EGR opens, and modulates (mod valve) THE egr EXH. FLOW.
THen when you cut the throttle, EGR mode ends. and VSV changes state.
as the VSV closes, it must vent air to the vacuum in the lines or the EGR will hang or be slow to close.
to do this vent action, a filter is needed. at C
those 2 knobs are filters. or filter caps, when others do service on the car they break things and ignore it.
when broken real well, it may even break the actual valve, and if that happens it sucks are full time and the ECU ISC servo actions FAIL HARD.
but is it not amazing how many things can break here and still run, EFI does that.
my engine 2007 year. new pump day,water and rear pump oRING. later I walnut shell blasted my TB. for fun.
![[Image: cover.jpg]](https://fixkick.com/t-belt/cover.jpg)
VSV evap opens driving to suck the nasty gas fumes from CANISTOR carbon can.
VSV DP only opens at first start, for 3 to 15 seconds, colder day, longer. a tad longer.
VSV EGR opens not idle , no WOT, but only off idle or on newer sidekicks only moving car over 1mph 1996+
so parked all 3 are closed, running, and all 3 do not suck air, a.k.a a vacuum leak, making MAP go nuts. (ECU +MAP)
to learn this , run engine at hot idle.
and pull this DP hose see RPM go high, or go high fast then ISC corrects the error back to 800hot.
if you pull this DP hose running RPM goes higher. the more hoses pulled the higher it goes. (adds)
here is my IAC test hole photo, for finding 2 classic failure, IAC stuck,closed or open or gasket blow out causing one more vacuum leak here.
all places to have air leaks are here. 8v. TV down. all leaks can make ISC servo fail for sure larger leaks.
the ISC is dead (means servo dead or it) THIS IS MY ISC test. (to see if it is alive at all)
if
1: hot engine , at idle parked. AC off. rear defroster off (huge elect. current this uses if opted new) steering switch not bad.
2: turn on headlights and blower to high(dash) at the same time, RPM must hold at 800rpm ( 89/90 cars take different test, as HL are fast idle on those 2 years)_
if not the IDLE servo is dead,
3: or if AT car shift in to drive, 800 rpm must hold. in DRIVE, going from N to D.
servo means the software(firm) loop in the ECU that controls idle rpm, is dead. (caused by 2 things, air leaks or in limphome mode = non code 12 is LIMP)
finding air leaks (vac leaks) are not easy to find, only by closing off all things that can leak we find the true leak'er,...
ever see the sci-fi movie.? (forget name but will not forget he great act)
astro _nuts in space ship flying in deep space, the hard vacuum of space.
It gets hit with micro meteorite. bam. holed. but location not known, only 14PSI air pressure falling fast in cabin.
air leaks out, faster than (environment controls can cope)
I love this part, one guy there, takes soda pop can , pops the pop top and leaks out cola.
they all watch in wonder, as the cola, flows to the leak and one guy out side , hey I found the leak here? and hot glues it shut. (now hero status)
same deal here, finding leaks takes hard work ! (can)
long ago , it was said, Nature abhors a vacuum (means on earth not the moon ) no space ships then so. means on earth.
Aristotle
same on car engines, it has vacuum inside, and nature wants to correct that, by any ways possible. (ever day of its life on earth)
even to the point of sucking in a gasket, ending or damaging the perfect vacuum inside.
hoses crack or collapse, my 91 kick the 2 map hoses turned to snot. the rubber was turning to runny glue mess, cheap hoses from suz.
ISC stuck open
air leaks to the intake manfold, lost of ways.
seen one car with TB base gasket with the 5 holes on bottom not blocked. home made gasket made wrong and sucked air.illegal air.
leaks < like gold is where you find them. keep open mind, do not ASSUME. or you will fail many times.
I good mid sent is assume it is all wrong, and prove otherwise, on old cars, this works really well.
the 8v runs great with air leaks, sure does. just idle speeds wrong.
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement - fixkick - 07-21-2020
it is true, working on any car, one needs spare gaskets or you end up with dead car. (sure can happen)
many gaskets tear to death , as parts come off, this is well known for sure 29 year old gaskets, that are old hard brittle, and like Graham Crackers now)
but to be accurate we can plug up every hose or pinch them closed to see if they leak. (RPM changes)
not PCV (new valve and new hose is best here)
and NOT MAP, hand tested see below .
brake booster is harder, takes a cork to the pipe/hose pulled.
no air leaks allowed. all paths blocked by mechanic now...
when doing this and hot idle is at 1500rpm? (AC off, all hot fast idle pins on ECU are not active)89/90 is tricky.
once any leak is cured by you, the ISC wakes up, (servo does) and like magic 800 RPM happens. (what if there is 2 or 3 leaks, well 29yr old cards do that)
seen one cars, TB with internal, freeze damage, owner had weak or pure water in the RAD and ice formed in the TB and cracked up the IAC section, deep inside where no eyeballs can go. 20f day and it cracked.
how did I prove that? (no picnic)
I closed off all leaking hoses, with golf TEE's, then new gaskets. related.
then I knew the TB is bad. (no spare TB nor $1300 for new one from Suzuki)
so I then make sure the TV is closed, (like day one I did this first, after all seen vast no touch screws set wrong endless)
I then blocked the IAC ports in the top TB cap, (on one car this fixed idle, ISC stuck open at 180f) bad ISC =.bad TB.
next:
I ended up with all possible leaks blocked by me.,but just TB fails.
(map sensor and its hose tested with hand vacuum pump tool and did not leak) nor did PCV leak. and its hose !~
a new Intake to head gasket was changed too. (this can fail, 29 year old gaskets are never good, not really)
leaving only 1 possible air leakage point, yes, leaks can be that hard.
that is why shops use a smoke machine, and is very hard to evaluate , needs full documents on TB to know what can leak and what must not leak.
on A/T car, the vacuum modulator hose must be plugged first they love to leak. not seen on stick shift car sure.
that is the full story , even on the most hard case ever seen by me.
and in all cases ECU flashes 12's first, never diagnose idle RPM with LIMPHOME SET, there are no idle controls in LIMP! (suz-fail-safe -mode)
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement - fixkick - 07-21-2020
now cold RPM, comment.
well if hot fails, Cold can fail too, after all the same wrong air leaks cause both to fail
and cold RPM is not ECU controlled at all there is no ISC servo controls cold started.
the IAC controls cold idle, that and is pure mechanical thermal device, not electric.
the IAC sends in a fixed amount of air say at 50F cold start, so if there are leaks (illegal) then you get IAC + illegal leak flows of air and RPM goes too high.
the IAC is closed hot, above 150f it is 100% closed if not RPM regulation fails.
The ISC will try very hard to close down 100% to hide a bad IAC but will fail. (depends on level of leak that)
a tiny IAC leak can be hidden by the ISC normal regulation and authority, to do so.
The IAC can be defeated 2 ways, to prove it is bad, or 3rd way, just tested in pan of hot water.
way 1, block gasket port to IAC bottom TB
way2, block IAC suck port under air horn cap
way3 test IAC in pan of hot water. 160 to 180f test. I do both.
way4: spare TB. Yah Rightttttttttttttttttt
all 3 ways take spare gaskets. sorry but that is how the cookie crumbles. lacking $1300 spare TB.
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement / TB leak search - jwunsch - 07-22-2020
Hello,
Oh that was a lot of information. I will definitely go trough all those steps to find the leaks. Ofc when I return to civilization I first need to order all the TB gaskets + new brake booster.
Anyhow today I hiked to the car and took some pictures. I am parking it VERY far away from the farm yard as it might still be dripping some oil either from engine or transmission. Recently head gasket replaced, transmission seals replaced, front and back differential seals changed. I don't want the oil to go to ground and get into our water well as this place depends on it for drinking water.
Anyhow here is a picture about the broken off "knob". If its really a filter, then I guess I need to either find replacement for it, or try to make some self-patented-filter over the broken one to stop dirt getting in.
Also I am fairly certain the booster leak is blocked now. The rubber tube from booster to TB looks to be in very good condition considering its age. Also other hoses still "look" ok. I am guessing they degrade lot slower here as Finland has lot less air pollution than USA (in general, Alaska might be the odd one
). And my car has spent most of its life in northern finland where its cold like in Alaska and population density is very very low.I put the ODB in diagnostics and got CEL code 12. All OK.
Also the car was sucking oil a bit when I bought it last year. I was thinking that in addition to leaking it from broken head gasket it would be burning some of it, but after replacing head gasket I have not been able to see any oil missing after about 700 miles. So I guess internally the engine is in quite good condition. (Considering it has ran 152000 miles already). Ie the km based meter has turned around/over 2 times.
Thank you for all the information. Do you have some crypto currency wallet I could donate a bit of currency for all the information and maintaining this forum. Its like a gold mine for suz info
ps. That movie is a good example of vacuum, though I understand vacuum (and pressure without the example). Had to took quite many physics courses when I studies Msc. Information technology, even tho I have never actually needed physics in my work.
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement - jwunsch - 08-03-2020
Hello fixkick.
More about the brake booster part numbers.
I am unable to locate 51300-60A30 @ EU zone for now, and I would like to get it without customs foobar from US.
I checked suzuki parts and found also booster below. It says its fits on Sideckick 91-98 without ABS, so am I correct if I assume it would fit my 91 Vitara (no abs).
https://www.suzukicarparts.com/oem-parts/suzuki-brake-booster-5130060a60
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement / TB leak search - fixkick - 08-04-2020
(07-22-2020, 07:36 PM)jwunsch Wrote: Hello,for sure forgive me telling about vacuum. to you, I understand about that.
Oh that was a lot of information. I will definitely go trough all those steps to find the leaks. Ofc when I return to civilization I first need to order all the TB gaskets + new brake booster.
Anyhow today I hiked to the car and took some pictures. I am parking it VERY far away from the farm yard as it might still be dripping some oil either from engine or transmission. Recently head gasket replaced, transmission seals replaced, front and back differential seals changed. I don't want the oil to go to ground and get into our water well as this place depends on it for drinking water.
Anyhow here is a picture about the broken off "knob". If its really a filter, then I guess I need to either find replacement for it, or try to make some self-patented-filter over the broken one to stop dirt getting in.
Also I am fairly certain the booster leak is blocked now. The rubber tube from booster to TB looks to be in very good condition considering its age. Also other hoses still "look" ok. I am guessing they degrade lot slower here as Finland has lot less air pollution than USA (in general, Alaska might be the odd one
I put the ODB in diagnostics and got CEL code 12. All OK.
Also the car was sucking oil a bit when I bought it last year. I was thinking that in addition to leaking it from broken head gasket it would be burning some of it, but after replacing head gasket I have not been able to see any oil missing after about 700 miles. So I guess internally the engine is in quite good condition. (Considering it has ran 152000 miles already). Ie the km based meter has turned around/over 2 times.
Thank you for all the information. Do you have some crypto currency wallet I could donate a bit of currency for all the information and maintaining this forum. Its like a gold mine for suz info
ps. That movie is a good example of vacuum, though I understand vacuum (and pressure without the example). Had to took quite many physics courses when I studies Msc. Information technology, even tho I have never actually needed physics in my work.
for sure vacuum leaks are hard to find, as are oil leaks (due to wind-age, effects)
yes, customs fobar, sure avoid this.... thanks for heads up.!
that CAP is only the filter broken off if the casing below is no cracked,
it is a filter so when the valve cycles it sucks in clean air only.
that booster hose plugged up , ends all brake diaphragm leakage for tests sure does.
the IAC can leak too hot. this old easy. (thermal IAC)
and molested screws, too. 4 of them. TV/DP/Bleed/ISC 5mm)
best is not touch those screws. but sadly get that way, this old ,for sure any CARB guys touching EFI. (oldskool screw fiddlers)
good code 12. means no sensors dead.
good luck to you !!!
I too love physics, and is why I went the electronics career. (still learning , endless)
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement / TB leak search - jwunsch - 08-05-2020
(08-04-2020, 01:25 AM)fixkick Wrote: for sure forgive me telling about vacuum. to you, I understand about that.
for sure vacuum leaks are hard to find, as are oil leaks (due to wind-age, effects)
yes, customs fobar, sure avoid this.... thanks for heads up.!
that CAP is only the filter broken off if the casing below is no cracked,
it is a filter so when the valve cycles it sucks in clean air only.
that booster hose plugged up , ends all brake diaphragm leakage for tests sure does.
the IAC can leak too hot. this old easy. (thermal IAC)
and molested screws, too. 4 of them. TV/DP/Bleed/ISC 5mm)
best is not touch those screws. but sadly get that way, this old ,for sure any CARB guys touching EFI. (oldskool screw fiddlers)
good code 12. means no sensors dead.
good luck to you !!!
I too love physics, and is why I went the electronics career. (still learning , endless)
Hehe no problem telling me about vacuum. Just wanted to establish I somewhat understand vacuum so you can skip the very basics.
Haven't gotten into the vacuum and booster things yet as still having problems with 51300-60A30 .. found some website selling part with 51300-60A60 @ EU zone but not exactly sure if its fits. Asked them to send pic from real item as I don't trust the pics on website.
I have spent the warm days on fixing and painting some dings and oopses that happened off-road. Last winter I tried to do some small paint jobs in my parents' garage but it would not heat enough so had to redo as the lacquer didn't clear up.. color was somewhat like pee
To be honest should try to allocate some time to learn about electronics. I mainly work on software coding, but with some electronics skills to supplement that, it would open so much possibilities with micro controllers etc.
RE: Vitara 1991 brake booster replacement - fixkick - 08-07-2020
let me trace this pn/. 51300-60A60
the last digit in a60 can be revision level but the A6 part,
let me look that up.