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+--- Thread: Idle slows and stops after revving (/thread-idle-slows-and-stops-after-revving)
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - CliveElliott - 11-12-2016
(11-11-2016, 02:17 PM)CliveElliott Wrote:(11-11-2016, 11:22 AM)fixkick Wrote: the 8v EGR
is in easy plain site below throttle body
just push the diaphragm metal ring in buy hand, that ring there , just push it and the valve opens (key off) and it then retracts under internal spring pressure.
Does the engine need to be up to operating temperature when performing this test? We did it while cold (60oF).
Do you mean the ring on the outside of the diaphragm? yes, It doesn't budge. When we push the rubber diaphragm it moves about 1/16". do not push rubber, push only the ring, (center part) there is a skeltonized frame there.
But none of the metal parts around it move at all. Guess it needs cleaning!? If so, we'll follow the directions on your website. We've ordered a new gasket for it.
this EGR can stick hot or cold, open and if it does, idle drops (hot) below 800rpm.,even as low a 400. or stalls.
all suz, are noted for sticking EGR, its there THING.
The EGR flexs about 1/4" or 5mm .
i push it like 5 time to make sure it moves, and dose not hang. a new one makes thud sound as it seats closed.
the non responsive throttle will be, bogging lack of fuel issue or misfire, the former is a smooth lack of power the latter is misfire loss of power, and is violent, heard, felt and see engine shake. It's just slow in responding the to gas pedal, and sometimes smoothly slows down when I haven't moved the gas pedal at all. Nothing violent. Time to check fuel filter? sure, if the filter is clogged, it may only idle and not be drivable.
this fact above is key to diagnosis
as is pulling a spark plug and see if its white or black. or oil soaked. ready spark plugs sill works on today's gas engines.
12 codes means ECU is happy. good.
yes flooding will clear just like you said. (for sure the least try to fire statement) all accurate
not drivable is it. No. We can back it out the driveway and then it stalls and we have to wait for it to cool before we can restart it and drive it back into the driveway. ,ok got you, not enough power to drive car.
power lacks wide open throttle, parked and driven. right, if can be driven. Not sure what this sentence means
sorry, was hoping you can gun the throttle parked, in and get full throttle rpms... 3500 or more. just for a second, hot.
I revved it to 4,000 rpm no problem; pedal still wasn't at the floor. (Didn't want to go above that - am afraid it's hard on the engine.)
gas dont go bad in 12months, most dont....
does engine reach 180f coolant temp, and hold there? too hot to hold hand on upper rad hose? this is normal, less is bad. 150f very bad. Will check this. I understand from your website that the EGR doesn't work if engine is not hot enough.
nor does the IAC close ,nor does ECU go to hot engine fuel mix. if coolant does not get hot, .
Upper rad hose is still just pleasantly warm after 10 minutes including revving. (Temperature gauge is past the center so I assume it's about as hot as it's going to get.) What makes it run at too low a temperature; and how can we make it run hotter? Will cleaning the EGR valve do that?
if the DIZZy Misfires, see the real dizzy page here, and the VR gap http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/89-timing.html
I don't think it's misfiring. Just occasionally missing when I add throttle (once or twice a minute) - perhaps a bit of water in the gas? Cap and rotor are new and good quality.
its noted for wild failures and heat soak failures. the VR and the ignition inside, can go bad, or worse , intermittent or wild results.
cheers to you from texas
Thanks again for your very valuable help. It's an honor to be talking to the author of your amazing website.
I spent half and hour writing a reply, then saved it as a draft, and now I can't find my draft.
Sure enough, the ring on the inboard side of the diaphragm snaps in an out, but only about 1/16". So I guess it needs cleaning.
my honor, ! to help you.
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
(11-12-2016, 08:57 AM)CliveElliott Wrote:(11-11-2016, 02:17 PM)CliveElliott Wrote:(11-11-2016, 11:22 AM)fixkick Wrote: the 8v EGR
is in easy plain site below throttle body
just push the diaphragm metal ring in buy hand, that ring there , just push it and the valve opens (key off) and it then retracts under internal spring pressure.
Does the engine need to be up to operating temperature when performing this test? We did it while cold (60oF).
Do you mean the ring on the outside of the diaphragm? yes, It doesn't budge. When we push the rubber diaphragm it moves about 1/16". do not push rubber, push only the ring, (center part) there is a skeltonized frame there.
But none of the metal parts around it move at all. Guess it needs cleaning!? If so, we'll follow the directions on your website. We've ordered a new gasket for it.
this EGR can stick hot or cold, open and if it does, idle drops (hot) below 800rpm.,even as low a 400. or stalls.
all suz, are noted for sticking EGR, its there THING.
The EGR flexs about 1/4" or 5mm !
i push it like 5 times to make sure it moves, and does not hang up open. a new one makes a thud sound, as it seats closed.
the non responsive throttle will be, bogging lack of fuel issue or misfire, the former is a smooth lack of power the latter is misfire loss of power, and is violent, heard, felt and see engine shake. It's just slow in responding the to gas pedal, and sometimes smoothly slows down when I haven't moved the gas pedal at all. Nothing violent. Time to check fuel filter? sure, if the filter is clogged, it may only idle and not be drive-able.
this fact above is key to diagnosis
as is pulling a spark plug and see if its white or black. or oil soaked. ready spark plugs sill works on today's gas engines.
Have you made sure the throttle cable at the TB has slack, ? and the cable is not sticking from gas foot pedal to TB? slack parked, it must have slack.
12 codes means ECU is happy. good.
yes flooding will clear just like you said. (for sure the least try to fire statement) all accurate
not drive-able is it. No. We can back it out the driveway and then it stalls and we have to wait for it to cool before we can restart it and drive it back into the driveway. ,ok got you, not enough power to drive car.
OK2, when it stalls and wont start, got spark? (a test) got black spark tips, (a test) or plug tips, dry or soaking in fuel? (tests)
power lacks wide open throttle, parked and driven. right, if can be driven. Not sure what this sentence means
WOT is wide open throttle , its really 2 tests, 1: parked, with hand on throttle, or foot pedal, , then test 2: driving wide open throttle in all gears to see
the engine produces, 80HP in all gears under all loads, these are called road test, and tell the mech whats up . but you cant do #2 because it stalls.
sorry, was hoping you can gun the throttle parked, in and get full throttle rpms... 3500 or more. just for a second, hot.
I revved it to 4,000 rpm no problem; pedal still wasn't at the floor. (Didn't want to go above that - am afraid it's hard on the engine.)
correct, do not over-rev it , its just jam throttle down for say 1second see what you get form rpm , some failures like low fuel pressure it can to high RPM.
good, the parked WOT test passes, the test,
but fails road test, because car is not driveable. (good to know, might be low fuel pressure, and filter for fuel be next
gas dont go bad in 12months, most dont....from pure fresh. on top of fresh, new gas on top very old gas, no comment. (unknown)
which begs the question when was car a good daily driver, ? 1year, 2 years or more ago, Daily and run perfectly.???
does engine reach 180f coolant temp, and hold there? too hot to hold hand on upper rad hose? this is normal, less is bad. 150f very bad. Will check this. I understand from your website that the EGR doesn't work if engine is not hot enough.
nor does the IAC close ,nor does ECU go to hot engine fuel mix. if coolant does not get hot, .
Upper rad hose is still just pleasantly warm after 10 minutes including revving. (Temperature gauge is past the center so I assume it's about as hot as it's going to get.) Just idling, can take 20min to reach full time, for sure cold outside.
t[b]he test is to make sure the thermostat works, so for , seems it don't. and that is bad, first order failure on all cars, .
What makes it run at too low a temperature; and how can we make it run hotter? [b] the thermostat regulates water temps. some fail open, closed or are slow, many are just very very slow, seen them take 10miles of hard driving to regulate, and was bad. they are alike a 6 year lifespan.
thermostats are a short life part, like car batteries, are, and near same life span, we have video of the makers telling why[/b]
Will cleaning the EGR valve do that? [/b] Sorry NO, egr is smog but, it must be closed at idle or engine cant run. at 800rpm if it leaks rpm can be 400.
see?
if the DIZZy Misfires, see the real dizzy page here, and the VR gap
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/89-timing.html
I don't think it's misfiring. Just occasionally missing when I add throttle (once or twice a minute) - perhaps a bit of water in the gas? Cap and rotor are new and good quality.
The see if spark and fuel works and engines are good takes loading up the engine, on the road, or up a hill .
full loads, require strong spark are your new spark plugs gapped at .028" ?
Is the fuel filter new? and clean? when removed, and tipped over in a pan, does it run gas out that looks ORANGE full of rust?> this a test done at all filter changes...
a packed filter can allow idle and cause no power, this is very very common.
its noted for wild failures and heat soak failures. the VR and the ignition inside, can go bad, or worse , intermittent or wild results.
cheers to you from texas
Thanks again for your very valuable help. It's an honor to be talking to the author of your amazing website.
I spent half and hour writing a reply, then saved it as a draft, and now I can't find my draft.
use windows notepad to answer, and save the fail, then , tcut and paste it here, then no more lost.
Sure enough, the ring on the inboard side of the diaphragm snaps in an out, but only about 1/16". So I guess it needs cleaning.
its bad EGR, but most are, bad, what matters only , is that it closed, opening up driving is a smog man worry (fails smog test, if its dead)
my honor, ! to help you.
Id put a new fuel filter in it.
LOW POWER Diagnosis or just likes to stall.
1: new thermostat if the top hose never gets HOT, hot is 180f, 192f and 195F, (the three correct stat to buy, never 160f, ever or fails HARD.
is 180F ok, or is 82C better for you... they are same.
2: put in a new fuel filter. (do the fuel depressurize step first, ask how or read my pump or injector page.
3: spark tests when it stalls. and if sparks ok stalled , unscrew a spark plug at the stall and look at the tip, (behold, whats up here)
the spark tips talk to you, they do , wet in fuel, dry, black with carbon, oil soaked, green antifreeze on tips,(or your color you use? of the many)
4: map hoses clean, means end to end, and nipples clear too.
5: cat melted, (does car still have a CAT?) the melted test, can be done 1 tools, (vacuum gauge ) and 2 methods.
method one is vacuum tests. type cat tests here.
method 2 ,same tool is 02 sensor pulled, measure back pressure, at the 02 bung fitting at 2500 rpm.
6: is you take your timing light, and check spark timing spark timing way retared ( off scale far right) that is CAM BELT slipped, 60k service points skipped
here is my 91 ,2door , same engine 5speed. temps with the hot stat (the gauge has no numbers so its not really and instrument grade device)
but once the car runs right, and hits say 180f then you get to see where this gauge lands and the memorize that spot. like I did to mine.
see test 2 an 5 here.
![[Image: meter-T-only1.jpg]](http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/sensor-icons/meter-T-only1.jpg){kind=icon}
is your cat missing? if yes, the EGR is useless, a missing cat, kills 4 , anti-smog features. and can all be addressed later once can runs good.
that cat is this. at the end of the Exhaust hearder
![[Image: catcon.jpg]](http://www.fixkick.com/sensors/sensor-icons/catcon.jpg){kind=icon}
the spark test, add words, "new fresh properly gaped spark plug" to his words, .028) or 0.7mm gap.
any spark plug type works that fits, only NEW and gap , are important. old shorted fouled plugs not good to use.
https://youtu.be/064Ilsz8Fzg?t=107
this is the classic spark test , done on all gas engines for 100 years,
use a ground wire if any kind on the outer shell of the plug to the engine block metal. jumper cables make this super easy,
but any wire can work, stripped and wrapped on the plug threads then ground other end.
here is a MP4 video I made, using simple wire (need any mp4 video player to watch but most things today all play MP4s.)
http://www.jeepdied.com/scope%20views/videos/vw-spark.mp4
do not hold the parts in your and cranking, or it will be a painful shock.
my spark above is super hot, due to my HIE upgrades. (MSD ignition)
https://youtu.be/064Ilsz8Fzg?t=107
fuel depressurization steps:
pull fuel pump relay but the silly 89/90s have no fuel pump relay ,its inside the mAIN, so pull the main relay below ECU and then crank the pressure off.
a better way is to remove left rear tail light, then see that huge CONNECTOR with pink wire, and pull this connector (separate it) and the pump is now dead.
start engine run it dry. it runs on good cars a few seconds an stalls. if it dont run crank for say 5 full seconds, not touching throttle pedal.
and crank or run engine dry, of fuel
http://www.fixkick.com/INJECTORS/depressure.html
do you have a timing light?
is the cam belt old.
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
when an engines stalls( and fails to start now)
we check spark pronto. (I carry the tools , to be ready, full well knowing its will stall, so im ready for action)
then pull plugs and read them.
dry or wet with gas? (dry means lost fueling, pump or ECU cuts fuel , is reason, this EFI (all do) will cut fuel, if DTC 42 or 41 POPS. (means ECU thinks,(right or wrong) spark is bad.
if there is spark then test fuel runs engine, for 1 to 3 seconds and can be repeated over and over, .....
I fact i can run an engine, like this with no fuel in the gas tank, keep it going with my fuel spray bottle.
see?
the spray test fuel, as seen clearly by scotty video above
run now? start? if not? engine is bad, or sparks bad, takes 4 working sparking spark plugs, to run not just 3.
if the cam belts slips, it retards, and can progress to worse., as is slips more, at some point, it can never run a again, and compression drops from 170 to 80. (at sealevel)
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
on this engine, it's a TBI, (throttle body injection)
when sparks go dry all 4 do, due to only 1 injector here.
on MPI engine, way more complex but you dont have MPI, and makes diagnosis more easy.
you can also remove the air horn of top of the TB
this engine runs ok with this part removed, (never on a MPI)
that means you can watch the injector do its SPRAY cone
as seen here
as seen here, (ignore 2 injectors, pretend 1)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dGOKl0eHgh8#t=30
if engine dont run, then its a 2 man job.
one cranks, person 2, ganders here, at an angle (backfiring now is dangerous to tester) keep your head working engines. (a back fire here can shoot flames) one can use a long arm and a mirror ,with a glove and be safer, )
gander, at the cone of fuel, it sprays cranking,
if not ECU cut fuel or pump is dead or the filter is packed solid.
the fuel system has 3 filters (4 really)
2 in the injector
1 just front of the tank
and 1 called the fuel filter sock in the end of the pump. bottom
any or all can clog,.
but we start with the service filter. just in front of the tank.
all autostores sell it, even walfart here.
this is where the 2 ,10 micron screens reside, super small holes... there.
![[Image: Iac-inj-view1w.jpg]](http://www.fixkick.com/IDLE-AIR/Slide_Show/images/Iac-inj-view1w.jpg)
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
if seen the screens pack
the main fuel filter has holes (media) 4 times larger that this, so junk can land here. for sure, after 26 years long service
rust inside fuel tanks is #1 failure. as is bad fuel turned to green nasty slime balls.
when did car last run perfect and was a daily driver.
?????
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
you did the tuneup and skipped the fuel filter
at all tuneups, its best practice, on all Distributors engines made to , check spark timing.
did the new engine (i bet it was just used, and not new or rebuilt.
was the engine , refreshed 3 years ago with a new cam belt,.?
if engine or belt was ,new, no matter which was, the 120k, is 20k past the 100k life of the belt.
the belt lasts for 100km , and fails about 30 to 60k mile beyond the stated service point, (in the book on this engine)
so how many miles are on this belt. seems 120k + even double. if engine was old.
as you can see i do not know the service history at all here.
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
Engine was swapped about 3 years ago and has about 120K km on it.
new engine?
fully rebuilt engine.?
pulled from a wreck and just bolted in??
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
i use a timing light, the instant i see running problems
got a light?>
if timings off, the cam belt slipped.
end saga. this I do on all cam belted engines.
and sometimes chains and for sure hearing it cry and scream with pain.
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - fixkick - 11-13-2016
when the belt slips
spark is great, but retarded big time.
the plugs are all soaking in fuel
engine power, low.
and stalls. and loves to flood.
on some the bottom crank pulley bolt was never set to the new 1996 spec, and is grossly loose.
the causes timing to go all over the map, ?CRAZY? even to the point of compression ok now, but not in 1hour. and repeats, timing out of control happens.
fooling the tech,
so always take a G16, and check that bolt day 1, if not , the crank end can be ruined.
94/ft/lbs. (127, N/meters) (locked up in 5th gear, hand brake super tight)
that is why a stalled engine, i check spark timing, to see if the cam is lost its time at the MOMENT (stalled)
is this car 2door.
??????????????????????????
anadian 1990 Geo Tracker, 1.6 L 8V TBI, with 3-speed auto transmission and 4WD (my guess, 2 doors>?)
on all these cars, the crank bolt is checked the day we get the car, or any used engine, any engine, 1st touched, by you. for crank bolt torque. (on a engine pallet is use my flywheel locker, hand made in 15min)
when the belt is changed look for crank tip end damage during the process. (snout key damage, as seen on my timing belt page and 100s of others seen it and sent photos, endlessly)
on all theses cars,. remove left rear tail light,
the ground on 2 door,s is in this PIT there, at 2pm a ground screw, it must must not be ,as all seem to have.(its pump ground on all 2doors made)
the left side of this same PIT, is the huge connector, there, the pink wires must not be rusty, both these conditions cause car to stall. and is worse in the 2door due to its unique ground.
that connector pins not rusty. this pit is subject to huge water ingress from below.
If you live in the SALT belt, (wiki that name) this PIT wires FAIL FAST. (salted roads, kill cars and for sure this)
RE: Idle slows and stops after revving - CliveElliott - 11-14-2016
Wow, you’ve written so much I’m overwhelmed. Thanks for your concern! I’ll try to answer all your questions and instructions here. (you don't need to convert to metric; we're old and still use inches, degrees Fahrenheit, etc. Everything except km.
"when was car a good daily driver, ?"
- About 16 months ago. My daughter was driving it daily. It started losing power and kept getting worse, then wouldn’t start. We were advised to change the cap, rotor and wires so we did. After that it started and idled OK but the engine would stop after ½ block. Then a backyard mechanic looked at it without success (don't know what he did and can't reach him!) and then it sat for 11 months before we started trying to figure out what was wrong with it.
"are your new spark plugs gapped at .028""
- Yes. New and gapped .028”
"Is the fuel filter new? and clean?"
- No, we haven’t looked at it yet. My husband has been too busy fixing our other cars (old Subarus) to jack it up and climb under. I’m sure it needs a new one, since we’ve driven it for 30k km since we bought it, and never looked. No tune-up at all.
"Sure enough, the ring on the inboard side of the diaphragm snaps in an out, but only about 1/16". So I guess it needs cleaning.
its bad EGR,"
- Do you mean the EGR needs replacing, or just that we need to clean it and see if it’s OK?
"1: new thermostat if the top hose never gets HOT, hot is 180f, 192f and 195F, (the three correct stat to buy, never 160f, ever or fails HARD.
is 180F ok, or is 82C better for you... they are same.
Will buy thermostat
"2: put in a new fuel filter. (do the fuel depressurize step first, ask how or read my pump or injector page.
Will do
"3: spark tests when it stalls. and if sparks ok stalled , unscrew a spark plug at the stall and look at the tip, (behold, whats up here)
the spark tips talk to you, they do , wet in fuel, dry, black with carbon, oil soaked, green antifreeze on tips,(or your color you use? of the many)
Will do
"4: map hoses clean, means end to end, and nipples clear too.
Will have to look at how to check this
"5: cat melted, (does car still have a CAT? Yikes, I don’t know! Will look.) the melted test, can be done 1 tools, (vacuum gauge ) and 2 methods.
method one is vacuum tests. type cat tests here.
method 2 ,same tool is 02 sensor pulled, measure back pressure, at the 02 bung fitting at 2500 rpm.
"6: is you take your timing light, and check spark timing spark timing way retared ( off scale far right) that is CAM BELT slipped, 60k service points skipped
Timing light on #1 says ignition timing is 10 degrees BTDC. (Should be 8 degrees but we had so much trouble getting it to run at all due to other problems, we’re afraid to tamper with success.)
"so how many miles are on this belt"
- Probably 120k km. Engine was pulled from a damaged car and just bolted in, with 105 k km on it. Since then we’ve driven about 15k km –> 120 k km total on engine. The mechanic who swapped it put in a new manifold and O2 sensor but there’s no cam belt on his invoice.
"got a light? Yes
if timings off, the cam belt slipped."
- Question: If it’s started to slip could the compression still be 130 psi, and could it be running smoothly at 10o BTDC?
"is this car 2door."
- Yes, sorry, 2door. Will remove left tail light and check ground screw and connector/pink wires
"…a stalled engine, i check spark timing, to see if the cam is lost its time at the MOMENT (stalled)"
- So, as soon as it stalls we need to
o Check for spark;
o look at spark plug tips for flooding;
o check spark timing?
o Anything else?
I want to get it running, but my husband doesn't have as much affection for it as I do, and I may not be able to get him to take the time to do all this. He's never worked on fuel-injected engines (neither have I) and gets quickly discouraged because he doesn't understand them. (Neither do I, except from what I've learned from your website and the Vitara FSM.) Snow and cold are expected to start on Wednesday, so my pet Tracker may sit until spring.