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+--- Thread: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. (/thread-a-t-4speed-fails-car-wont-move-until-hot)
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - zukitrek - 10-16-2015
I was gonna post "My last post of the day" but actually here in PR is my first post . Anyways, I did some more testing tonight. Found no error codes with paper clip but found that trying to start car with clip on car would crank start and then die (did this twice). Removed clip a bam, started and an engine kept running. Another thing. At least 1 spark was in perfect condition (will check the rest tomorrow and do the compression test). But the big revelation (at least for me) my ignition timing is off 4 degrees. Went ahead a marked both belt cover and crank wheel for doing the ignition timing with the strobe (jumping pins 4-5) and just to validate with you, the 16v is timed at 8degrees BTDC? Well if yes then it was at least 4 degrees off. Before all this I did another test run and car did shift from 1st to 2nd and to 3rd. If you asked me im still lost but will keep testing.
Good night!!
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - fixkick - 10-16-2015
what does"no errors with the clip mean", got 12s, or BLANK LAMP? lamp stuck ON? did you insert the engine bay DLC jumper running,? this is a valid test to see LIVE errors. you can even drive car with flashing 12s, and see if it changes on HILLS , (that is called live testing)
"my ignition timing is off 4 degrees" in what direction????
0 would be retarded timing, and 9 would be too far advanced, use real numbers, not the off by thing. please.
YOUR hood sticker shows. this all clearly, and even shows the freeze jumper there, see it? (vague sure)
http://www.fixkick.com/specs/Body-TAGS/html/image_3.html
"is it fueling?"
ive no idea, at all, me not driving it or using my tools. i cant feel misfire here, nor hear it? or see your engine shake from misfiring...
finding low power causes, is not easy , lacking all tools to do the tests.
if its not misfiring, and the engine has full compression, and timed to factory spec.
it's bad fuel in tank or fueling related. sure.
but that can be (all inputs to ecu wrong, or injection issues, and or fuel pressure wrong)
all engines are checked in the following order.
1: compression at spec, 150 psi min, (W.O.T) spark out, foot holding throttle open or by hand.
195 PSI. Seen in FSM chapter 6-6 (not 6A1) hot spec.
my 16v pulls
My 97' pulls 185 PSI min. dead cold. (a new head) later and hot it does 195 PSI. Old 100k mile engine , at SEA LEVEL ! im sure you are at sea level...
spark timing 101:
the spark timing is not done like that, read my timing page yet?
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16v-procedure.html
this links show all ways to get it right, not just fine tuning it, it covers planting a distributor and all ways to mess up, (lots there are)
the ECU bounces timing all over the place to get low smog, low fuel usage and to set fine idle speed adjustments. NORMAL ON ALL EFI systems.
the fsm on all suzuki G16 show you how to place the timing freeze jumper, first.
this freezes the timing, and now you set the static running hot idle , timing, after getting 800 rpm working, not before.
the spec, for timing is on the hood. open hood, look up, under hood, see that huge white sticker, with vacuum map, spark gap, and timing ?
why be lost? the transmission is working,. it shafts too late. as all do if the 95 HP engine is not only 60HP... the transmission can not invent horse power, out of nothing. ( it can increase torque, "gear ratios" but not HP, HP is a factor of Torque AND RPM.)
the engine is weak. is my answer.
and i told you how to prove that 2 ways, stall test passes!. and you pullt he TCM and drive up a hill, see engine is weak. (or not)_
You have 3 gears to test, in TCM limp-home mode. sure the TCM connector has a lock lever, as do all connectors on car, squeeze it...)
Go up a hill in 3rd gear, flog it. see, low power. right?
It only has 95hp, any drop with that small amount on any 4 door (heavy) will be dramatic. just like all small cars do.... like that....
The 95 is about 75hp at rear wheels. 95 is fly wheel HP only.
car runs ok, but shifts late.
right>?
it's not the trans.. if the 0D flashes 12s it's not trans. i bet.
but did the ECU CEL flash 12s on demand, did it? and running?
and that stalling with the DTC jumper is wrong. elaborate that please, tell what pins used, and where.
were exactly did you use the clip ( car has 2 DLCs) DLC = (diag. link connector) some cars have 4 pin or 6 pin, DLC under hood, which is yours?????
the steering column DLC is for the TCM? 1 to 6 jump. (called TCM diag pins)
the under hood DLC is , 4pin DLC or 6pin DLC and what pins? is yours 6 pins?
when using the jumpers, say what the light does, (goes blank, stuck on, or flashes 12s) be clear on what it does, as that speaks volumes...
my guess on ECU engine/jumper clip stalls. is using wrong DLC or wrong pins.
or ECU is very sick. this is correct , ECU with bad caps crash and can not run engine and run diagnostics at same time, its overloaded.... and a TOP SYMPTOM to see on any old pre 1996 Sidekick/tracker or Vitara .
please expand on that odd thing, with CEL, stalls..... its a critical error there.
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now ill do timing, for you here.
the engine must be hot, 180f (pre my timing page and the FSM 1995 best year book)
the engine idle speed must be near 800 and not surging, the ISC must work. and regulate idle , hot engine. 180F.+
connect strobe to #1 wire lead (front)
The hood sticker shows timing spec, it's advanced, from zero. (scale side left)
5 degrees before TDC is our spec, in our country. FEDERAL LAW.
http://www.fixkick.com/specs/Body-TAGS/html/image_3.html
Freeze, jump C to D on 4pin DLC, on 6 pin, DLC jumper. 4 to 5. (THIS DLC is next to battery close in front)
the timing must not bounce now. (frozen by you it is)
if it bounces there are 9 reasons for that to fail. stated on my timing page, clearly.
if the the cam belt slipped all this is just a waste of time..... for sure....
the page is clear on how to set timing and the 9 ways for the freeze to fail, besides using the wrong pins. jumped.
see fast track here (fast track means distributor not removed before now)
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/16v-procedure.html
let me ask one more time.
does ECU flash(CEL) 12s running, even driving hard.?
does the TCM flash 12s, at all times? (OD LAMP flashes 12s)
not doing this first. is a very big waste of your time.... imagine the ECU and TCM saw and error then cleared it. and you missed that fact.
errors can in fact set and clear in an instant,, for sure spark errors. of any kind.
lets do the engine power low , global checks. (ASE class room basics, it's called)
compression ok. (cat not melted, check is on my list too) I have a cat test page, read that? do you even have a CAT ?
Intake track not blocked by birds or rodents (run car with air cleaner lid remove, got power back>????????)
ecu CEL flashes 12s driving,
and OD TCM flashes 12s all time.? what if the ecu messes up, as all do till 1995. what if? CEL acts funny??????
spark ok. (strong and set to hood sticker spec FOR TIMING)
Is engine misfiring or bogging, the 2 ways to loose power .?
fueling ok. (huge list of tests ON FUEL, and is last not first.) you can't burn fuel FULLY, if spark and/OR compression is BAD.
We call this knocking the ducks over. 1 by 1, and land on fueling.
fueling is a vastly more complex topic.
I can't do the full fueling tests here, on one page. we can do it 1 step at a time.
cases in point: (not guessing but this car is old, as is .....)
The FPR loves to fail on this very old car. they get old and do that.
if it sticks open, the engine starves of fuel, and if it sticks closed it floods. some do both randomly, omg, a private H3LL that.. no?
if the FPR vacuum nipple leaks fuel, ITS BAD.
the tests are easy with a fuel pressure gauge. 3 tests. covered in my fuel pump page.
as are the injectors balance tests. using same tool, covered in the FSM and on my injectors page.
if the inputs to the ECU lie, the ECU will in fact inject wrong. (the ECU is just a very old slow computer)
one input (blind it cant see that) is fuel pressure. of low all the time , power will be low at higher throttle settings, and the 4speed will SHIFT LATE!
one more input is the 02 sensor, but it's not online , accelerating or at WOT. but can cause low power cruising if it reads 1v most the time. (1v = rich causing ECU to go lean and lost power. unplug it for 1 day to see if things change.)
(more timing hints)
the crank pulley turns CW
the TDC scale is on top
the left of that scale, is advancement. (happens sooner)
the right is 0. we never go right of 0 , ever. (retarded timing is right)
i made this photo to make all this very clear, as seen on my timing page
![[Image: tdc-look2.jpg]](http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/tdc-look2.jpg)
getting the freeze to work can i fact be very very hard. on any G16 engine. (ECU rules are very strict here)
9 reasons hard.
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - zukitrek - 10-16-2015
Good day sir. As of now doing compression test. Yes ecu flashed 12's on demand. What happened was car would not start or start and die if jumper was left for codes. Strange? Last night I did the freeze jump thing pin 4 to 5 and no bouncing but noticed crank mark was not aligned to 8btdc mark on cover. That has to be fixed. Compression came out super, engine hot, WOT 1-4 in the same order: 195-200-200-200. Will need to get tools for testing FPreg. Will keep you posted. One thing thoug and keep in mind, if tranny is good why it takes 10 minutes to move while on drive after warm up on the very first start of the day? Could fuel probs affect it this way too?
Regards!!!
BTW all spark tips look good. will send you pics later on.
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - fixkick - 10-17-2015
that is a bad sign of any early ECU,
good its 6pin. ECU. DLC , now i know what is there.
8degrees works in calif, all day. 5 on all feds. here.
my 96 engine and a bad crank pulley the rubber damper inside slipped, making spark timing impossible to set, (TDC checks found this horror)
setting the distributor is 2 minutes work, strobe flashing there.
ok that is news.
you never said the 10 minute , im dead tranny symptoms.
that is a bad tranny if the OD flashes,12s.
you need to post all symptoms....
you said drive gear fails, for 10 mins.
well, so Low and 2nd and REVERSE fail too,????,, you didnt try that too.> at failure?
the stall test fails, too cold, you never said that. not once. but the stall test heats ATV SUPER FAST and would hid this failure.
if the car wont move cold by logic, so would the stall test, until the ATF got warm..
the transmission has test called the line pressure test.
if that fails, the trans is bad and will get worse.
hot oil ATF, goes past a filter more easy, so is your filter clean , in bottom of trans?
some times hot oil will make old , seals get soft and seal better, that is overhaul time.
there is a transmission additive sold in all stores, (last resort)
that softens seals, but it also damages them, long term,, but can keep car going for a while.....
(picture in mind, seal softer, working then later melts to junk) but if car never moves and not can move to AMMCO trans shop, this can save towing charges....
I'd never use this snake oil in a trans that works ok hot.
104 pages,
not sure what was done in 104 pages of posts.
not at all, (i helped 1000s on other forums)
water under bridge and all that.
so bad tranny
and maybe fueling issues.
the bad tranny might be slipping when you don't expect it. (or not felt)
slipping can be felt using the TCM pull out connector test.
you drive it and flog all gears, if any gear slips, the tranny is bad. (this is a skill, that takes seat of pants knowledge and close look at RPM dial)
all i can say is the trans is locked in 1 gear (selected), and you try to overload it, if it slips, its bad (low line pressure tops list, next)
the TCM on this car is the dumber kind .
newer cars watch for slip more carefully.
slip burns the clutch packs fast. (will get worse faster, ) if it fact they slip.
TC slip is normal, a learned skill testing, the tech knows the feel of the normal TC slip, (then not slip, when TCC locks up)
The ECU /TCM can see input RPM and tail shaft RPM (speed its called or VSS2) and if it is real bad, the slip it will report this error in DTC form.
The TCM shifts from 2nd to 3rd (say) the TCM sees the RPM drop in the Valid range.
the TCM sets no DTC if the rpm drop is in spec.
Keep in mind the TCM cant see hills, it assume more throttle is used, for hills, and that is OK by TCM rules. and delays shifting.
but of the tranny slips and the tail shaft is too slow, it will not up shift. per the tables posted.
it reads the TPS to see demand, if you use lots of more heavy throttle foot, it will never upshift, util the tail shaft hits the magic table speeds.
if the slip gets worse the TCM will never up shift.
newer cars the load calcs are better, and the TCM can see you load is light but speed not increasing right. or see that the trans slips under light loads.
i think your TCM can not do that magic, until 2000 year. about. a Turn Load based TCM is far better than throttle based.
id fix the tranny first.
for 2 reasons.
1: it fails for 10 mins.
2: and it shifts late, what if fixing #1 fixes #2,,,, luck happens.
how many gear shift locations fail for 10mins.. D, 2, Lo and reverse?
yes, i did not read posts older that October
sorry.
it has june to October gap, so assumed all new issues, my bad.
but im not reading all 104 chapters, omg.
the 10minute thing is a gross error, something not to ignore.
why not do the line pressure tests , stated in the FSM , do it cold and hot. ID BET IT FAILS HARD, the FSM covers this, same rules 1996 4speed,
it's next
and a filter , is this filter 23 years old? sorry i forget.?
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - zukitrek - 10-17-2015
Well, my bad also for assuming from thread tittle that you remembered why I started it. Line pressure has never been done. Way before in this thread you were almost sure tranny was/is bad. I felt lost when you told me that on the stall test I did yesterday tranny seem ok?
If tranny is bad disconnecting TCM to shift manually would produce same results as if connected? Will have to find out.
Back to timing, so mine should be 5 BTDC (mines is 4BTDC) or 8? I forgot to look at the sticker.
Another thing why would engine won't keep running if clip is left for scanning error codes? If clip was removed then she would start fine. I still find idle way too low. Should I fiddle with the bleed screw or not?
Thanks!!!
I was preferring the problem to be Fuel instead of tranny. 2 day job vs a couple of hours work is nothing to look forward too?
Back to connectors used for test.
TCM was jumped for codes during running, flat, uphill hard and slow and all the time I got 12's from the OD lamp even when slipping, not shifting etc.
The other connector (front of batt, 6 pin mine, pins 2 and 4) was jumpered for getting codes with key on, again getting only 12's. The odd thing was trying to start the car with paper clip on connector, (it would not start or start and die)
For timing I then jumpered 4-5 and was only getting 5BTDC.
(10-17-2015, 12:07 AM)fixkick Wrote: that is a bad sign of any early ECU,
What do you rmean with this?
8degrees works in calif, all day. 5 on all feds. here.
We get Calif models spec cars here from time to time (my honda is set for Calif emissions)
Sticker from under the hood will confirm this
and a filter , is this filter 23 years old? sorry i forget.?
Was changed in January and before that changed on summer 2014, so in year 2 new filters? We can rule filter out, unless there is quiet Gnome and dumps crap onto my tranny from time to time.
All this is recapping from the 10 month old thread. Lucas tranny additive was also used back in april.
Cheers!!
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - fixkick - 10-17-2015
ok filtes fine, if tank not rusty, i always back flush the old filter to see if the red rust shoots out and if does cry a river....
yes, the ECU loves to have bad caps. (or worse damage form them deep)
and with such, they reboot constantly.
one way of many to see that happen is the diagnostic pins or freeze pins fail.
see why? its like jugger, man in circus. you tell him to add one more bowing pin and he fails.
see why?
yes, lucus melts seals. a known fact, but can be a blessing to some for a time. (imagine all ways a chem can make seals seal,, only one why i know, it melts them)
Inserting the diagnostic jumper must never stall an engine. or cause ECU to get upset, we can drive a week with it inserted, done this vast times.
do not drive with freeze set, ever. or burn up the cat.
1996 they set a DTC just for that act.
after 100 posts im never sure the title is till valid,
I try to explain this here.
my funky 8 tests.
http://www.fixkick.com/ECU/ECU.html#Tests
test 8 is lost comes tests (you dont have a scan tool) so lot comms is code 12s act oddly, same deal really.
test 5 and 6 also apply.
you did say the stall test passes.
but failed to say, it must hot tranny, 10 min waiting...
your tranny is bad, asking why it shifts late, does not compute......
take it to the tranny shop and ask them to test it. pay for testing only, it will fail.
the line pressure will fail cold.
the stall too fails ,car will not move cold so it fails the stall by fact of reasoning..
"What happened, was car would not start or start and die if jumper was left for codes. Strange? "
i was keying of this comment.
what pins, ??? on the 6 pin DLC
and is strange. and a bad sign.
you have this. im sure, which pins are no start. pins. (4 and 2, 4 is ground) 2 is diag mode, flash 12s)
![[Image: CAL-car-diag2.gif]](http://www.fixkick.com/CEL/DLC/CAL-car-diag2.gif)
the codes must all come out nice and perfectly
repeats, never dies. never skips half a code, or any funny business
if yes the ECU is sick.
you can start car with diagmode set pin 2.
or put in as its already running, no issues
or drive a week with pin 2 ground , no problems ever.
the driving with TCM removed
allow you to feel the transmission performance with NO INTERFERENCE from the TCM at all.
3 gears work
no slipping felt. (takes skill this. as the TC will slip (slush pumps they are) but a tech knows what slips and what dont and knows the feel of that.
i can not articulate feel well. sorry.
The TC adds to torque, over its internal stall speed. and feels locked up, then you torture the clutch packs, to see if you can make them slip.
this is all in your head during the test, TC< and clutch pack friction disks (they are not supposed to slip, in a single gear)
the clutch packs do slip when you shift. but then lock up.
this is what you think doing the tests.
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - zukitrek - 10-17-2015
Yes I put the clip on the 6 pin connector, jumping 2-4. I get 12's endlessly. I tried starting her up with clip still on but it would not or did, but then shut off. Ill try doing it with engine already on and see.
Well now is 10 min many months ago was 7 minutes, heck even 10 seconds is bad. But tittle of thread was clear and I did not want to start another thread if many things were already covered or discussed.
What about idle too low? Can I fiddle with the bleed screw? 02 sensor is also new, as well as cap, rotor, sparks and wires. Even now new battery is in.
Maybe I thought about getting a donor tranny and then overhauling mine in the future, just to get car back on the road. Cant afford a shop repair, not these days or never with such high price tags on repairs.
Will let you know.
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - fixkick - 10-17-2015
what is the ecu part number on car. is the ECU in steel box, not aluminum is it the 33920-58Bxx series : this series has no troubles at all running diag mode, any which why you dream up. (sounds like the ECU has issues) what if that ISSUE, caused the ECU load calc', data to the TCM to be wrong, too.
the ECU has network wire (serial) to the TCM the ECU sends data to the TCM so the TCM can make smart decisions.
auto transmissions are all expensive new or used, or otherwise, and few 20 year old trans are any good used.
Do the work one time and learn why, its long hard tedious work.
So the re-builders are very expensive ,. like $200 in parts, and what labor,$ how many hours, for me a week of long nights after work.
not even counting the 4hs to pull it out.
for linear non stop work , what? about 8hrs labor? , or less with a real pro that does it every day.
so say 4 hours labor, so that be like 4 x $100 . in shop.
400 for labor and $200 in parts. how can anyone beat that price, not easy, unless you do the 8hr labor , it will take non pro.
i have a nice video of the rebuild, and after watching it 1 time you will see why its so expensive, and what is inside that might be totally nu-usable. (more costs)
then the cost of a warranty, that be not free or cheap. imagine doing the box times, one time at price, and one at free. not good. that. (the re-builder)
why not do the line test. to prove the pressures are bad.
if they are, the ECU and TCM are fact hopeless to correct that.. ever.
this is why i like stick shifts, they will last 300k miles easy . life of car and engine.
unlike most a/t made. (ive even got 200k+ on 1 clutch )
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - zukitrek - 10-17-2015
Ive been looking for kicks around town for sale and some have popped up at really average prices, but yes on the way to work I was pondering on the idea of taking it to a A/T shop and let them asses whats wrong and finally give me a quote. The idea of getting another solves 2 problems 1- wife gets car sometime next week and 2-I finally tackle the overhauling job of the A/T box and have a 3rd car cause in a few years my oldest son goes to college, But Im not quite sure if thats the way to go now. I would not hurt to have a 3rd car around. I also thought about getting a M/T version of the kick, but wife refuses, I tell her her way is the pricey way in many ways. I have 2 A/T shops near home so I can call them to see what they tell me. Anything over 1K bucks then my option is a used car. Im in a very tough crossroad.
Thanks so much for your time!!
Really appreciate it!!
BTW, I checked sticker under the hood, yes mine is timed at 5BTDC, so she is also OK in that area. Will try the clip on while engine running and then look for that ECU number.
Regards!!!
RE: A/T 4speed fails, car wont move until hot. - fixkick - 10-17-2015
you can only watch it get worse
or at the least change the filter. why at post 109, the filter is still not changed, out... why?
heck you could even put back the old AFT that drained out on the fear , that the new ATF will cause more sludge to clean off all the parts and do bad things.
i cant see inside your box. no man can.
only you do do service and pick what to do and take your own risks. (there are no guarantees ever, when seen? you paid for it.... i promise ,grin)
still no new filter. after 109 posts.
if the engine runs lean, the trans shifts late.
if the engine power is low for any reasons the trans will shift late
if the TV cable sticks (at 3 points) it will shift late
if the TCM sees funny things, from the TPS, it will shift late.
if the transmission slips, it will shift late or not at all.
both the ECu and TCM can have bad CAPS this year, causing very odd things.....
if the filter is dirty the the trans slips in drive, until the fluid gets hot, the stall test will heat the ATF fluid faster...
if seals in the trans are bad, as all are after 20 years, (never seen any last that long) then......
if line pressure is low
and the the clutch packs slip, they are doomed , to early failure..... do not let it slip.
the line pressure is checked cold and hot.
but doing after a new filter, is SMART.
if the line stall test shows early failure (not in gear) we abort the test. why do more harm.?
are you running snake oil in that box?
skipping filter?
what have you done to the box in 100 posts.
anything, ?
most A/T never self heal, ever. they progress to worse, as the parts that are bad, get worse (wear) as all parts do ...
my guess, is there are 2 or 3 problems in car (driveline). (as most this old all have....)
that no start, with code 12 jumper in place is a bad , demon...
the filter new is slam dunk, and skipped.
the controversy is here. (a double wammy, cheap owners and fibbing EPA)
http://www.fixkick.com/IGN_timing/tune-ups.html#controversy
the shift late issue, (all else ok)
does the TV cable work end to end, 3 points of checks.
move at front
moves in middle
moves at the trans TV valve, even the valve rod can rust and jam, did it?
the TCM can delay shifts
and the mech, TV valve can too, inside the trans.
on newer cars the TV is gone, the ECU can tell the TCM all facts, needed.
the diaper needs changing
why the delay/?