+- Car Repair Forum (https://fixkick.com/forum)
+-- Forum: Suzuki (https://fixkick.com/forum/forum-suzuki)
+--- Forum: Sidekick/Tracker (https://fixkick.com/forum/forum-sidekick-tracker)
+--- Thread: Fixing the Shifting Issues (/thread-fixing-the-shifting-issues)
Fixing the Shifting Issues - Vitalie - 08-11-2014
Hi
Let me cut to the chase and say that I changed the clutch cable first, then I changed the transmission oil and now I changed the #19 and #27 parts recommend when shifting problems.
When I adjust the cable to the specs the release lever just 1mm play (little click) I am almost impossible to shift it, is so hard I even hear it very loud when change 1st to 2nd and so on, it almost hurts my hand it takes effort and wiggle. Now if I tighten it beyond the specs, I think now is about 6-8 turns tighter and it shifts better, not nearly perfect but I can drive it.
I know that my pressure plate is good as it grabs with no problem.
the 1inch rule passed.
What is my next thing to focus on. is it obvious the clutch or transmission?
or both?
Also I don't downshift a lot as it grinds. from rolling to shift in 3rd I have to slow down to 20mph and rev up the engine to 3000rpm to get grind free shift.
I noticed that from stopped sometimes before shifting 1st I go just a tiny bit towards the second and then in first fills better.
I want to order some parts but not sure what is it. I want to take it down and fix it. not take it down, check, put it back, order parts and then again.
It is my daily driver.
Thanks for all the suggestions in advance.
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - fixkick - 08-11-2014
the canary gear is reverse. its no synchro. and is used almost not at all and if it grinds the clutch is bad.
my guess is the pressure plate fingers are overheated and burned an now non linear. poor release
your shifting with no clutch, in effect.
im sure the clutch is bad, and dragging, setting the cable over tight will help some but overloads the throwout bearing
the 1 inch rule is form zero play but im sure you know that.
and it releases way before you hit that 1 inch. yours dont. release. not 100% release
it can also be just a cracked disc. or swelled from oil.
sorry but it needs all 3 parts clutch. IMO
the reason for the 1 inch rule is easy, the cables seize or the pedal loves to crack in the actual pedal. and will no longer move the bell arm 1inch.
the cable actual causes the pedal to break. very common,,,, and id not like to see some one buy a clutch for a bad pedal.. or cable.
but that is not you.
cheers and happy hunting.
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - Vitalie - 08-11-2014
Ok I will get a cluch kit first.
Also, I forgot to say that it kicks pretty bad. I mean when releasing the cluch pedal. I have to be very gentle to avoid it. I can also have the same kick bang if moving very slow and then pushing the gas. It can be in every gear. But most in first and second as moving in traffic. I also can see the shifter moving a bit to the this reaction.
Thnks again.
Just to clarify that even I have difficulty shifting the car won't move as long as I was holding the clutch down. It tells me that it is not dragging. Yes, it picks the flywheel more nicely than when over tightened the cluch cable though.
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - cosmic_splatter - 08-11-2014
Vitalie,
My clutch is doing the exact same thing. If I adjust to the fsm specs, I can't get it into gear without grinding. If I overtighten the cable it seems fine. I get a slight clunk in second gear, but the rest of the gears are fine.
Probably a worn out clutch/throwout bearing as fixkick says.
I think it's easiest to pull the whole engine versus trying to change the clutch from under the car. I think I'll drive it some more before pulling the motor.
John
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - fixkick - 08-11-2014
http://www.fixkick.com/tranny/clutch/clutch-on-kick.html#Diagnosis
Reverse gear, what does reverse do...? it will not like even the smallest crutch drag. or grinds. or balks as you attempt to select reverse, running.
1st gear is then ext hardest due to drive shaft rpm is 0 and engine is 800.
other gears are more easy because you match speeds , double cluthing etc.
the pressure plate is bad, or the disc is warped, cracked or swollen in oil.
vitlies, that kicking is violent clutch engage ment, this is the pressure plate fingers burned up,(now non linear in behaviour) and as you attemp to release the clutch , engage it.
you can not to so in a smooth manor, (all comments are with cable new. and bell lever moves 1 inch, and no broken clutch pedal or its end spine stripped.)
let me explain synchro's (those cute brass rings)
as you release the clutch , the transmission input shaft does to zero RPM (yours is not) ! and grinds. or balks. i call this the Canary gear, like in the coal mines, first to die?
events:
clutch fully disengages (if not? its hopeless)
tranny RPM on input shaft drops to zero RPM or tries to. it will, parked.
the operator selects reverse, and it grinds, so operator waits a second and RPM is zero and reverse dont grind. it has no synchro .so must be 0 zero, if rear wheels are 0 rpm. (parked is that)
next?
the operator selects 1st gear tranny input shaft is zero, the synro is not needed NOW, and 1st engages.
if not, the synchro can not , overpower the engines 20 horse power , passing via a dragging clutch disc, impossible. it will grind,
lets SAY, as you are coasting at 5mph and select 1st gear from Neutral.
normal:
the input shaft is now 0 rpm (clutch works) the tail shaft is 5 MPH RPRM the synchro matches those 2 speeds. it only has to overcome the inertia of the input shaft, this shaft speeds up
to the output shaft speed( syncho's are a speed matching device), and 1st gear happens, no clunk or dogs grinding, (same is true for all forward gears)
Bad:
if the clutch drags. this keeps the input shaft at 800 rpm at all times. and the synrhro is overloaded (an lots of wear) it can not slow the input shaft (or speed it up if necessary) because
it is not even close to having the power of that dragging clutch disc.
A synchro has only it's cone, surfaces (weak) to match speeds, it can not hide a bad clutch, that is never its job. it's job is to only overcome , the small input shaft inertia, as it spins down or up. (and the disc inertia too)
I hope this helps.
the clutch can fail many ways, PP ,(pressure plate) can warp, its lever spring too. the flywheel surface can be bad causing violent engagement. the throw out can fail then overheat then
burn up those PP spring fingers. so very easy. in fact even glow red hot. and lose their temper.(anneals)
sad of all ,a bad cable can simulate all this. they wear inside and grove and jam. (unseen) random to boot.
the disc can warp,crack or soak up oil. causes dragging and or violent clutch action or grinding.(balking)
the disc has springs that can can fail, too. (makes noises odd)
id replace the pilot bearing, if is bad, the this simulates a bad clutch perfectly. just on $3 part. spoils the soup.
it makes the synchro's very unhappy
.
Reverse what does reverse do parked, (take 10 seconds to not grind, or grinds every time?)
good luck !
if you have an engine hoist.
and the exhaust flange comes off easy, pulling the engine can be way more easy, and mostly stand up work.
to pull the tranny you must get body frame higher than the bell housing diameter. then drain all the xfr cases and tranny first then the crossmember out. its a long process.
but the engine is just some connections, and some mount bolts.
http://www.fixkick.com/tranny/clutch/new-clutch-howto.html
if you have garage pit, that too can help, few folks have them today, back in the 20s. lots did.
engine out
has more steps but are easy , just standing there.
no need to pull the console or seats to get those stupid console side screws (rivets)
http://www.fixkick.com/engine/motor-pull.html
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - gorkyb - 08-11-2014
Speaking of shifting. The wife was practicing some 5 speed driving this weekend when I noticed that by accident she went from 4th to neutral without pressing the clutch. Is this normal or is it a symptom of something else going bad?
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - Vitalie - 08-12-2014
Thanks for the detail explanation.
// The reverse grinds half the time. If I hold 9 seconds it dosen't.
I am definitely getting a new clutch kit. as it is the next thing I can do before replacing the whole transmission
I am on the budget . What do you think about this clutch kit. it is the cheapest on rockauto? it has a hart next to it.
AMS AUTOMOTIVE Part # 04137 8.500" X .875" X 20T One of our most popular parts - $87.99
Unfortunately I don't have and engine hoist. just couple of ramps and jack stands. I am planing on just dropping the trany down enough to clear the space to change the clutch components. I don't think I will be able to take it out from under the car completely for the lack of clearance. I think I can get about 15in total. I will have to work with what I have.
Thanks again.
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - fixkick - 08-12-2014
100% normal
you can move the dog fork and the gear undogs, at any time. under power it will go BANG, and is not good for dogs
but if you match engine speed to road speed, you are in effect being a human synchro.
did you know , race cars manual stick cars have no syncro's this makes the tranny stronger. and slows shift but they mostly dont shift at all on loop tracks.
but can be shifted just like old school buses and dump trucks , my 1959 dump truck had 15 speeds all crash box. and not one synro in the truck,. not one. and is called a crash box. (due to sound)
so you had to learn to shift and match gear speeds, this magic is called double clutching< sure clutch must be working,......
my Chevy 1961 broke a 3rd gear synro, once (bad driver, blush, dont ask) and i had to double clutch all 2>3 or 4>3 shifts. matching the gears, each time.
and one more example, a stuck clutch, my VW , 1970, (i have 68 now)
the clutch was stuck. solid, sure snapped cable. top reason
so push start car in 1st.(better is 2nd)
then match rpm of engine to axle rpm (can be done real smooth)
and shift it very carefully at the right rpms (using gas a foot to match rpm and then move lever) bam 2nd gear
can get you home, from from home. take back roads.
done this like 3 times now. (more, ... i forgot)
OR?
or park on a hill, start engine, in neutral. (works with dead battery and snapped clutch cable ,double bad, and works) (fails in Kansas)
start car if no start, then gravity start it in gear), coast till going fast. try 2nd (skip first) , now. then shift using engine rpm matching axle rpm. it will go clunk if done right.
in fact , you can gently press shift lever and feel it drop in as you get engine RPM right. takes practice, use a rental car as target,grin.
all kinds of tricks with 5speed. stick. many.
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - Vitalie - 08-12-2014
I think we both posted at the same time. and fixkick answering to gorkyb not to my last post.
Thank You
RE: Fixing the Shifting Issues - fixkick - 08-12-2014
no problem at all, please post and often. no rules here, just folks helping folks.
a good brand of clutch, is Exedy 04137
or LUK
must be 8v or 16v , pick the right one, the 16v is larger disc and spine count
ams?,. question why do the erase all there reviews on amazon to zero or 1. odd that. very odd... and no about tab on there, web site. odd that too....
http://www.amazon.com/EXEDY-04137-OEM-Replacement-Clutch/dp/B001B55BZW